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Talk:Trees
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Contents
Petrified Stumps
I've seen two times now that tree stumps got petrified over time, couldn't find anything about it online thou. Can anybody confirm this? Last time It was a pine tree stump and the next day it looked somehow grey/white and a bit thinner (more like a maple tree stump) when I cut it down with an axe I got a red mushroom, although it didn't look like any mushroom sapling on the pictures. --Mr. Menoa (talk) 07:34, 9 April 2016 (BST)
- How old is this comment? Was it from a previous version? Perhaps the stump turned into a mushroom stump?--Enkidu (talk) 13:22, 17 October 2016 (BST)
Number of days for each stage
I tested with 4 of each type, and they had a broad range. Mostly ~1-3 days in stage 1, ~1-6 days in stage 2 as well as stage 3 and ~3-5 days in stage 4. Would be good if someone that is in touch with the code could confirm something here..
- With all conditions met, trees have a 20% chance to grow:
if (this tree can grow during current season)
{
if (this tree can spawn at this tree's location on environment's map)
{
if (this tree's stage is 4)
{
if (environment has a stage 5+ Tree overlapping this tree's 3x3 box)
{
return;
}
}
else if (this tree's stage is 0)
{
if (environment has an Object at this tree's location)
{
return;
}
}
if (random.NextDouble() < 0.2)
{
grow this tree by one stage;
}
}
}
- --BryghtShadow (talk) 19:43, 13 May 2016 (EDT)
Saplings next to Saplings
Trees stop saplings from growing, but do saplings also count as trees? Do saplings stop other saplings from growing if they're next to each other?--Enkidu (talk) 23:55, 15 October 2016 (BST)
- Afaik they don't. I've let trees grow on unused part of my farm until it was too dense in saplings to walk trough. Cutting down the trees let them grow even if they where surrounded by other saplings. --Vg-tal (talk) 22:03, 18 October 2016 (BST)
Time to grow trees
Hey guys, I've been thinking a bit about the math behind tree growth in this game, and I think there is some conflicting information between the wiki page for Trees and for each respective tree sort. The Tree-page (and BryghtShadow below) states (correctly, I think) that there is a 20% change each night for a tree to grow to the next stage. Since there are 4 stages for a tree to grow to before being fully grown, this should give an average of 4*5=20 days for a tree to completely grow up after being planted. This is just the average number of days, the total number of days for it to fully grow is a random variable. However, the wiki pages for Oak/Maple/Pine-trees state that trees take 10 to 12 days to grow, which seems a bit contradictory to me. Is this an error in the wiki pages for the tree sort or am I maybe missing something? --Randil
- The 10 to 12 days is probably an old estimation. If you look up the page history it's older then BryghtShadow comment (which is correct indeed). This mean it's was just never updated. Ideally the mechanic should be explained on the page since the number days can vary greatly. --Vg-tal (talk) 22:57, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
- Not quite right, folks. Let's calculate based on exactly 20% chance per day, since that seems to be the known approximate quantity. Since stage 1 is a newly-planted seed, there are four growths required for the tree to become mature (as you have stated). Each growth marks a new starting point, so mathematically, the effects from stage to stage are additive. That is, four stages take four times as long (normally) as one stage.
- Now, the probability mechanics for multiple days per stage is multiplicative. There is a 20% chance for growth on one day, so there is a 20% times 20% chance for growth on two days in a row, or 4%. What we really need here, though, are the chances that there will be no growth for multiple days in a row. So, there's an 80% chance that there will not be growth on one day, 80% * 80% that there will be none two days in a row, or 64%. And there's an 80% * 64% chance that there will be no growth three days in a row, or 51.2%. Given that 80% is approximate for one day, we're safe enough in claiming that's about 50% for three days. This means that there is also about a 50% chance that growth will occur on one of those three days. Thus, the most likely span of time for one growth stage is three days.
- From this we get three days times four growths equals twelve days, the median (not average) growth time for a tree from the time it is planted.
- Median? What's that mean? First, it means that half of newly-planted trees will mature in twelve days or less, and half will not.
- Why isn't that the average? Because the average time sums up the actual times for all trees and divides by the number of trees. The shortest possible growth occurs in 4 days (0.16% chance: very small). The longest? Well, there is no longest possible time! Though the probabilities continue to diminish rapidly enough as time goes on, they never get to zero. It's about a 25% chance that it will take 6 days to grow one stage. At that rate, it would take 24 days to grow the tree. Chances of that are 25% * 25% * 25% * 25%, or 0.78%, nearly five times greater than the minimum possible 4 days. So to balance things out for an average, we'd need to factor in five 24-day maturations for every one 4-day maturation: a total of 124 days for 6 maturations, or 21 days on average. There are worse cases, too, and the more of them you include, the higher the average is driven. In fact, there is no limit to how high the average can go. It just depends on where you stop considering the perverse cases. Technically, this means that there actually is no mathematical "average" at all. "Median" (the "middle point") is all you have. Fortunately, that's what you want anyway. Butterbur (talk) 18:53, 17 September 2017 (BST)
- I disagree with the claim that an approximately 50% chance for some growth in 3 days makes the overall median for full growth 12 days. I believe a better approach is to model tree growth with a binomial distribution. With the binomial cumulative density function, one can calculate the probability that a tree will have at least 4 successful growths in n days. Using this binomial model, there is only a 20.54% chance that a tree fully grows in 12 days. The best estimate of a median would instead be 18 days since there is a 49.90% probability of full growth in that time frame. MouseyPounds (talk) 00:07, 11 October 2017 (BST)
- Really! Your approach is certainly valid and correct, and I can easily take your word for the actual calculation. Especially so because since I wrote the above, I have observed growth in a plot of 21 newly planted trees that matches a median of 18 days much better than one of 12 days. So, many thanks for the correction!
- I was trying to create a very simple and easy-to-understand explanation that would be intuitive to those who don't have much math. It's rather embarassing to me to have made this particular mistake, for I understand how binomial distributions work. But frustrating in that it's harder to explain. Guess I got some cobwebs in the belfry! I've corrected the article. Butterbur (talk) 02:32, 11 October 2017 (BST)
To revive this dead horse and beat it back to death... the problem is that there are 6 total growth stages, not 5. That's based first on code (see #Tree Stages below). But also the miracle of Tree Fertilizer makes it easy for anyone to directly confirm in-game that the fastest possible growth time is 5 days, not 4.
So I redid the median/90%/99% growth time calculations. Just to be sure I was getting the probabilities right, I did it two ways. First, I wrote code to randomly "simulate" the growth of thousands (then millions...) of trees, and did median/etc. calculations on the results. Second, I did a calculation that (having now read this discussion) I assume was a binomial cumulative density function. Upshot: 24 days median (just barely: 49.93% on day 23, 54.01% on day 24), 38 days for 90%, 55 days for 99%.
Finally, because I try to always do a sanity check with in-game testing, I also planted 80 trees in game -- recognizing that it's really too small a sample to be statistically conclusive. In any case, after 22 days, 41 of the trees had reached maturity. 22 is closer to 24 days than 18 days. Furthermore it was clear from the beginning that this test was going to be on the "fast" side -- 22 seeds sprouted the first night (27.5%, not 20%); 4 seeds reached stage 4 after three nights (i.e., they grew every night for the first three nights: 5% vs "expected" 0.8%). Meaning 22 days is far more likely to be an underestimate, and the test is much more consistent with a 24 day value than 18. Nebulous Maestress (talk) 01:20, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
Stumps
As "seeds can spawn around stumps", I thought it could be useful to identify stumps' appearance so we can say which seeds that specific stump is possibly generating around itself.
| Maple Tree | ||||||
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| Spring | Summer | Fall | Winter | |||
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| Oak Tree | ||||||
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| Spring | Summer | Fall | Winter | |||
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| Pine Tree | ||||||
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| Spring | Summer | Fall | Winter | |||
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| Mushroom Tree - All Seasons |
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| Palm Tree - All Seasons |
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-- Sapador (talk) 04:13, 1 September 2018 (BST)
- Great idea! Two suggestions:
- Add images of the actual seed in the ground (I think spring only might be fine, but if you're feeling ambitious, you can upload images of all seasons). They're in the same sprite sheets as the stumps.
- The Palm Tree doesn't drop seeds (at least it is not supposed to!), so maybe eliminate that from the table. Unless you simply want to show all stumps, and then we can just make a note that it doesn't drop seeds. margotbean (talk) 15:36, 1 September 2018 (BST)
- OMG, Sapador, why didn't you tell me we already have the tree seed images on the page! I only just now noticed!
- I would say the images could be cropped quite a bit, but we have all we need to add the info to the page already. margotbean (talk) 18:12, 3 September 2018 (BST)
Do Trees Still Drop Seeds If Tappered?
I haven't noticed a maple seed dropping in my farm when the tree is tappered, although I am using paves to control the seed spawns, it could just be luck. --PauSix (talk) 10:10, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
- It appears you answered your own question, since you edited the page to say "yes" they do. So, all is well then. margotbean (talk) 15:37, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
Weeds
Hi, I was chopping palm trees down the other day and they drop weeds; the same stuff you get if you hoe up a mushroom tree seed. I put it on the wiki, but would like a bit of confirmation here. Thanks. MeC (talk) 20:39, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
- It's a multiplayer bug that I hope will get fixed before v1.3 is final. It has been reported on the forums. margotbean (talk) 21:17, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
About my latest edit
Hi!
I'm new here.
I wrote "Fruit Trees" in bold instead of using Fruit Trees because I thought that was the way to do it since there's already a link at the top of the article. Feel free to edit if I made a mistake. 😅 --Bowi QC (talk) 18:32, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
Tree Stages
The tree stages shown on the article currently do not agree with those used in code. Is this discrepancy intentional or should it be fixed?
The constants defined in Tree.cs are:
- seedStage = 0
- sproutStage = 1
- saplingStage = 2
- bushStage = 3
- treeStage = 5
Stage 4 is not defined as a constant, but it is a real stage -- the appearance/behavior at stage 4 is simply identical to stage 3. In other words, a tree spends twice as long at 'bush' stage than the other seedling stages.
So stage 5 matches what is shown on the wiki, stage 4 semi-matches, but the other values on the wiki are different by one.
The biggest consequence of the wiki condensing six stages (0,1,2,3,4,5) of growth into five (1,2,3,4,5) is that nearly every statement related to growth times is incorrect:
- The statement median growth time to maturity should be about 18 days was determined assuming five growth stages. For six-stage growth, the median time is 23 days (90% in 39 days; 99% in 54 days). In-game tests confirm these longer growth values.
- Tree Fertilizer does mention that fertilized trees spend two days at the second-to-last size, but it also needs to be stated and/or clearly visible from the pictures that all trees -- even unfertilized ones -- spend twice as much time at that size.
- 20% chance of growing to the next stage each day is not true at wiki-stage 4 -- and I can't come up with an easy way to rephrase that statement correctly, short of renumbering the stages to match code.
Personally, I also find it more logical to refer to seeds as stage 0 of growth -- because they have not yet started to grow, and are handled distinctly differently from all the other seedling stages. Not to mention it's really confusing to translate code-based conclusions into wiki articles when the numbers and even terminology (e.g., sapling) are inconsistent.
Yes, a fix will require changes across multiple pages (and ideally even renaming the tree images). But right now the articles need to be edited anyway (fix growth time statements, add tree fertilizer, etc.). Comments? Nebulous Maestress (talk) 18:22, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, we're not going to renumber the stages on the wiki to start with 0. The median growth times can be corrected, and the statement "each tree spends twice as long at stage 4" can be added. Stage 4 is the sapling stage, so it could be referred to as that. 20% growth each day, except for saplings isn't complicated to say. What the % actually is, I don't know, but we can work it out. margotbean (talk) 19:18, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
Non-Bug Deleted
For the record, while editing the article, I removed the following information that was under Bugs:
- Chopping a stage 2–3 sapling with an axe has a chance to drop one wood, depending on your forage level. This doesn't happen when cutting it with a scythe.
I don't see why this is considered to be a bug -- it looks to me like fully intended behavior. I'd guess the rationale is that if you're quick-clearing large tracts of land with a scythe, you're not being careful enough to extract maximum resources. But if you are carefully chopping down a single seedling with an axe, and you're skillful enough with an axe, then you can sometimes recover one usable piece of wood. Also, the information is now redundant with what I added under Trees#Harvesting. Nebulous Maestress (talk) 23:58, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
